Comments on The Ephemeric: The Problem with Arsenal FC: a Risky Business

Fair point James. To be honest I can't remembe...

2009-12-15T17:20:18.451Z

Fair point James. To be honest I can't remember exactly when Roman arrived. But to my knowledge you weren't battling for the title at the time and so you therefore may have been forced to pay higher wages than normal to sign the players you needed to become genuine contenders.

I agree with you entirely, but for the record, Che...

2009-12-15T17:12:06.735Z

I agree with you entirely, but for the record, Chelsea were in the champions league when Roman came in, that's apparently one of the main reasons why he bought us.

Yeah I agree with the comment on wages. But i supp...

2009-12-15T17:07:59.560Z

Yeah I agree with the comment on wages. But i suppose as soon as a player knows that a club has the money to pay tens of millions of pounds for them then they're gonna expect that they can pay them large wages. I'd say thats especially so in the case of City and Chelsea (at least originally), when you don't have champions league football to offer. But then comes the problem of when you get to the top, players who come after that are going to expect the crazy wages to continue and it results in a vicious circle.

Its not even specific to the top four either. We spent a lot of money under roy keane paying over the odds for a lot of average players in order to compete and we struggled to do that (although we've stopped doing that so much now and i doubt our wages would have been so significant).

I think portsmouth and to a lesser extent west ham are the classic examples of where this era of excessive spending could lead us, given the financial trouble they both now find themselves in.

agreed James, and not just the wages (chelsea'...

2009-12-15T16:39:54.187Z

agreed James, and not just the wages (chelsea's wage budget is reported to be 3 million a week, over 150 million a year, far more than their transfer spendings) but also agent fees which double that and the insane salaries and bonuses the executives are pulling back in addition to the players' wages.

Sorry that should be 15 million wages per year + b...

2009-12-15T16:32:46.508Z

Sorry that should be 15 million wages per year + bonuses for ronaldo, typo.

ahh rational conversation. oh anon2, why couldn...

2009-12-15T16:28:11.816Z

ahh rational conversation. oh anon2, why couldn't you be more like anon3?

"As an Arsenal fan", "For me though its all about Sunderland".

Ah, there ya go.

@ anon3 I agree with you to an extent, but I thin...

2009-12-15T16:23:35.848Z

@ anon3

I agree with you to an extent, but I think it's important to note that when I talk about reckless spending I don't mean to place too much emphasis on transfer fees alone. Clearly in cases like Madrid and City with supposed 100 million pound signings it's significant, but in the case of a team like Chelsea or United, cutting out your 25 million pound signings isn't going to be enough to put them in the black.

The real problem is the wage bill, with players on 100,000 + pounds per week salaries and millions ever year per player, that's the real cost of all this crazy spending. It's particularly a problem with Chelsea where you have little income to support this spending, due to a small stadium and less sponsorship than a team like United and Madrid (although this has been steadily increasing in recent years according to Reuters).

United and Chelsea are both heavily in debt (although at least in Chelsea's case the loan is interest free, payable straight back to Abramovich), and Madrid will be if they can't get sponsorship to pay off Ronaldo's 80 million transfer + 100 million in wages for him alone.

The last guy who's commented actually made som...

2009-12-15T15:09:25.852Z

The last guy who's commented actually made some sense. Kudos.

I'd have Cana in my team.

I will admit that as a 'neutral' supporter...

2009-12-15T14:10:25.600Z

I will admit that as a 'neutral' supporter (in terms of the top four anyway), that you could argue that chelsea bought their status as a successful club. But i don't think theres a club in the league (except arsenal maybe), who wouldn't have done the same given the opportunity (look at city).

Credit to chelsea that they have seemed to curb their spending a little since they reached the top, but although their team is good at the moment, they aren't getting any younger and they will soon have to rely on young players or more big money signings to stay ahead (and the latter may be difficult if the ban goes ahead).

Big credit also has to go to arsenal as well though. To maintain their top 4 status with such attractive football and a reliance on younger talent is quite an achievement, even if they are a load of foreigners (although i will admit that they may potentially have 3 british players in their regular eleven soon!!)

The interesting thing may be when Ferguson and Wenger leave. Will we see a shake up at the top???

For me though its all about Sunderland!!! Darren banging in the goals and the beast that is Cana in midfield!

lol, when that spammer came here i dont think he w...

2009-12-13T00:01:06.304Z

lol, when that spammer came here i dont think he was expecting the ass whuppin history lesson you dished out james.

Chelsea played well today, but for some awful defe...

2009-12-12T20:57:58.868Z

Chelsea played well today, but for some awful defending from set pieces. We got let off the hook thanks to United losing, but United have a very easy run of games between now and new years, so Chelsea really need to get back to comfortable winning ways and tighten up that defence. We can't afford to drop any points from the next three games.

what an absurd weekend of football, so many draws....

2009-12-12T17:25:32.717Z

what an absurd weekend of football, so many draws. top marks to chelsea i thought they played some fantastic stuff today, just a few bizarre goals for everton. not sure what happened with the second goal either, it seemed to go out for either a goal kick or a corner, everton then took a thrown in and scored.

well anyone, time for the united game, COME ON!

amazing chelsea game today, but as an arsenal fan ...

2009-12-12T17:17:25.944Z

amazing chelsea game today, but as an arsenal fan even i have to admit that they were very hard done by. harsh result, but what awful set piece defending. chelsea played very well otherwise.

@ abe that may have been the case in the past, bu...

2009-12-12T14:32:34.907Z

@ abe

that may have been the case in the past, but i very much doubt theyre making a profit this year after spending the amount they did on players. theres simply no way that ronaldo can bring them windfalls of 80 mill in the 3 year contract hes signed with them. not to mention the absurd wages that he is reportedly pullinng back.

i'm the same guy as anon2 btw, to put this in ...

2009-12-12T14:31:34.188Z

i'm the same guy as anon2 btw, to put this in context.

the only issue i have with what youre saying is that clubs like Madrid are supposedly still turning a profit.

@ anon2, the sane one It's a good point, but ...

2009-12-12T14:29:26.955Z

@ anon2, the sane one

It's a good point, but I contest that gambling and tv money alone will not be enough to let the industry maintain the over the top spending that has so characterised it in recent years.

You are quite correct that spending has always been a part of the game, as I alluded to in an earlier comment, but "financial influence" and "market stability" are two very different things, and while it's always been the case that the big spenders rule the day, the spending in question seems to have increased disproportionately to inflation, to the point where the income streams can't possibly catch up with the spending.

Another example of a recent boom and bust of this nature is Dubai and the current crisis that has been all over the news.

It's a very interesting parallel you draw betw...

2009-12-12T14:23:00.281Z

It's a very interesting parallel you draw between the current state of spending and the recent financial crises, but i dont think it will ever happen and heres why:

football has always been flush with too much money, even through previous financial crashes. the sudden influx of billionaires buying clubs has kind of become the 'media thing' of the decade and so all the amateur observers out there talk about it non stop like its this radical big thing, even though its pretty much the same ol same ol. in the meantime football still has very steady sources of income, notably the gambling industry and tv money, and thats not going to change even if the clubs suddenly find themselves strapped for cash, which i cant see happening anyway.

Come on James, you knew that with a headline like ...

2009-12-12T03:32:40.679Z

Come on James, you knew that with a headline like that some Arsenal fan was going to come along and protest without reading on.

Anyway, it's a good read, but I would suggest that Arsenal are never going to earn enough through gate receipts to spend the kind of money that all their rivals have.

Similarly, if football as a sport gets hit by financial crisis, which is practically inevitable at this rate, Arsenal won't escape unscathed just because their wage bills are lower than the rest, especially if they still have stadium debt piled on.

@ anon But I don't think I am criticising Ars...

2009-12-12T03:25:12.237Z

@ anon

But I don't think I am criticising Arsenal, the whole point of the article is to suggest that the club is making intelligent decisions that will stand it in good stead. As for the BBC comment, I'm not a professional writer, and I don't pretend to be, but if you consider Lawro and Phil McNulty to be insightful experts then I think that may be the problem here.

I am more than happy to engage in a discussion about the effect money has had on the stature of various top clubs, but I would say that it's strange for you to single out Chelsea when Real, Barca, Man U, Man City and Inter have achieved success by spending on a similar scale.

I would also point out that this perception that it is only recently that money has controlled the game is a fallacy. The amount of money being thrown around may have inflated in recent years but it has always been the case that the richest clubs owned by politicians and businessmen have been the most successful, just look at Juve and Real as far back as 50 years ago. Specifically, as an Arsenal fan familiar with the Arsenal/Spurs rivalry you've no doubt heard all the stories about the Henry Norris affair in 1919 which is said to be one of the main causes of this rivalry.

I'm not quite sure I did imply Zidane and Figo...

2009-12-12T03:09:27.439Z

I'm not quite sure I did imply Zidane and Figo were home-grown, but take from that what you will. They were indeed bought for large sums of money, but I doubt Real Madrid can be accused of buying La Liga, at least not along the same lines of Chelsea having bought the few titles they have "achieved". I am merely drawing upon a time in football where talent ruled football: a time where I remember Chelsea were not doing quite so well without the financial boost your ultimo now brings, in comparison to Arsenal.

I can admit that you didn't seem the run-of-the-mill Chelsea fan, oblivious to anyone else's opinion, but everyone seems to jumping on the bandwagon to criticise Arsenal nowadays. Eduardo was singled out for diving earlier this season, something I believe Drogba, Ronaldo, Gerrard and Rooney have done many times throughout their careers, and it seems as though Arsenal are being made an example here too.

I did read you article fully before I commented - let me emphasise again just how good Drogba is, because unlike other arsenal/football fans, I think he is without doubt the best striker in the world. No-one offers the same option that he does, not even Torres in my opinion.

I would however like to remind you of that 3 of the 6 young players who are apparently being given a "chance" in the first team are not originally from Chelsea, so forgive me when I point out the hypocrisy of your article once again to earmark Arsenal of stealing youngsters. I very much doubt other players warming the bench constitutes as giving them a chance. I think considering we have a considerable injury crisis on our hands compared to a Chelsea team brimming with...experience and first team players, we are bound to slip up. I would worry more about the fact that Lampard and co were outdone by Man City, rather than how poorly 17 year old Jack Wilshere played aginst them.

I do beg your pardon for my evident arrogance in my comment: after all, I did publish a whole article based on the failings of another club to keep up with the sheep...I think Chelsea fans such as yourselves are immune to criticism of others, basking in the glory that money has brought you.

I have merely addressed the points you have brought up in your article, rather than sneering at my supposed lack of my knowledge as you have. I suggest you should take in what other people read are not merely skim through quickly - you haven't commented on the majority on my points, which I assume is because you cannot but agree with them. If anything, your supposed "hesistant optimism" is blatant arrogance over your superior opinion.

There is good reason you do not write for people like the BBC - I highly doubt you are indeed the expert in the matter that you make yourself out to be.

As a man u fan, i hope your predictions are wrong!...

2009-12-12T02:00:40.223Z

As a man u fan, i hope your predictions are wrong! haha. but i must say its nice to see a football fan who can say positive things about a rival team, too many fans are completely without class, much like the guy who just tried claiming that figo and zidane were homegrown legeneds lol.

As a final point, there's no small amount of i...

2009-12-12T01:55:09.436Z

As a final point, there's no small amount of irony in lamenting the days of Figo and Zidane, two of football's all time most expensive transfers, as a bygone remnant of days when the game wasn't ruled by money.

@anon With all due respect just because you are u...

2009-12-12T01:51:51.318Z

@anon

With all due respect just because you are unaware about the things I discussed doesn't mean they are incorrect. I don't think the article is at all biased, in fact for a Chelsea fan like me to admit that Arsenal are making sensible decisions to put them in a better position than Chelsea seems to be the exact opposite, perhaps you should have read the entire article.

But to answer your points, losing once in the premiership and once in the carling cup with a weak team hardly seems to conflict with my hesitant optimism, and hardly seems to be more of a concern than Arsenal losing 3-0 in a row.

The young players who have frequently been a part of Ancelotti's team include Bruma (17), Kakuta (18), Matic (20), Borini (18), Mikel (22), Sturridge (19) and numerous others have been featured in the squad, including just this week Philiskirk and Hutchinson. I don't expect you to be aware of these things, but similarly your arrogant ignorance is hardly conducive to a civil discourse.

I think this is an extremely biased view, I don...

2009-12-12T01:42:28.580Z

I think this is an extremely biased view, I don't think you taken a step back to look at how Chelsea have achieved the honours that really should have been so much more, seeing as you've spent a large amount of money since Abramovich took over. The fact that Chelsea have been beaten twice in the last week speaks volumes over the delusions you are having over your own team.

I'm not quite sure what "young talent" Ancelotti is currently fielding for Chelsea, perhaps the 32 year old Deco, or the 30 year old Anelka? Apart from Kakuta and perhaps Sturridge (both developed home-grown talent of course), you've fielded the same team of aging stars you always have really. You have a couple of younger players in there of course, but nothing to suggest that Chelsea are bursting at the seams with buzzing young players.

I think you give too much credit to a team that relies heavily on Ancelotti's reputation, and a powerhouse in Drogba. there is no doubt that he is one of the best strikers in Europe, yet Chelsea are so heavily reliant on Drogba's ability that they lack the fluency or extra dimension when he is absent.

As an Arsenal fan, I would like to point out quite strongly that around half the team fielded against Olympiakos were home grown youngsters. This is obviously the case with the array of talent Chelsea bought the premiership with 5 years ago such as Joe Cole, Frank Lampard, Glen Johnson, Makelele, Carvalho, Mutu, Robben, Kezman, Duff, Scott Parker....the list goes own. I think it's extremely hypocritical for you to talk about Arsenal's poaching, when Chelsea have tapped up Ashley Cole and Kakuta, the latter for which you should have a properly imposed transfer ban.

Arsenal's problem of not engaging in financial tug-of-wars over players (something you so astutely describe) is something I am extremely proud of. I am aware we have bought some players for large sums of money: they are, however, overshadowed by the humongous prices Liverpool, Manchester Utd and of course Chelsea have forked out over the last 4 years.

The age of money has come and ruined football. Cashley has run off to chelsea, Robinho has come to Manchester City, Ronaldo has joined Real. It is inevitable. However, I am proud that my club will not be held ransom by players over extortionate wage increases. You talk of Hleb, Flamini and Henry: Hleb regrets leaving Arsenal, and has publicised this fact. Flamini was unhappy at not being offered a regular place in midfield at Arsenal: he is now playing right back for Milan. And Henry should have stayed at Arsenal and overseen the transition into the new age, but Fabregas has blossomed from his absence: a blessing in disguise.

It is a very sad world indeed in which money rules football. The days of Figo and Zidane have gone. However, the youngsters Arsenal have show more promise than most others in the premiership, and once Chelsea's band of pensioners retire, this will be ever more evident. I think you embellish when you say Arsenal fans say their team are the best in the premiership - the fact we have shown immaturity cannot be avoided, but we certainly have one of the most talented teams in the top flight. Only a small proportion of Arsenal fans are restless over Wenger, the most of us are happy with him. Our search for silverware through developed talent (yes, developed, as Fabregas, Merida and co have learnt their trade at Arsenal) continues, and hopefully we won't be dragged into the monetary war occuring in world football at the moment. Money is definitely not everything in this world, something which I think you fail to see.

the only way it will pay off for arsenal in the ev...

2009-12-11T12:47:45.072Z

the only way it will pay off for arsenal in the event of a crash is once theyve paid off their stadium debt, at which point their expenditures will be miniscule compared to other clubs, but also with a goood deal of income